further to a member from here having his 225/r26 (what ever it was) mapped by red dot racing, someone from the fiat forum has had his GP mapped from 130bhp to 180 and apparently having this upped to 210 next week (210!!!!!!)
another member has also used these and achieved figures of 179bhp but only 249lb/ft of torque when mapped. now, standard they tested it at:

137bhp with 177lb/ft of torque (fiats standard figures are 130 and 207 respectively) so 7bhp over, but 30 lb/ft under???

so this leads me to think that the rr they use is way out or set wrong?

there is a well known tuning company called angel tuning which offer a 170bhp and 262lb/ft map and have tested various maps on the 1.9 gp for around 7000 miles in total, and have found that this was the best setup.

the thing that concerns me is that they're totally happy to have the engine shove out 210bhp and probably wont care that in a few thousand miles or whatever the clutch is going to give way along with the gear box.

ok, before remap graph:

http://www.fiatforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30644&d=1184837306

after remap graph:

http://www.fiatforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30643&d=1184837096

and this set too...

before:

http://www.fiatforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30657&d=1184865356

after:

http://www.fiatforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30658&d=1184865367

now i have no idea about remaps, and i dont claim to either, but members such as paul, icarus, andy etc etc do, so i would appreciate your views on this matter. thanks guys.

do the curves look good? is the power delivery smooth? also, i notice that the two standard graphs are quite a bit different... but like i say, i have no idea how to read them or understand them, so would appreciate a bit of help.

thanks, david.

There is rumour abound that the use an inaccurate dyno. Icarus has said this a few times. I'm keen to see a reddot mapped Meggy on a DD RR back to back with a standard motor and an RS-Tuning one.

Rolling Roads have to measure wheel torque to calculate BHP. If the road can't reliably and accurately measure Torque then the power figure it gives you is useless.

If it was my car I wouldn't be expecting or wanting any map on it claiming 210bhp on completely standard hardware without seeing a lot of evidence that it was still within the design spec.... basicaly it won't be, hence you're going to get into reduced life span of components etc.

I ran 430bhp from an engine originaly designed for 225bhp..... standard internals, lasted around 30K between rebuilds. Used to kill ring packs and suffer from exhaust valve seat regression. That was a Saab B234R, one of the strongest 4 pots ever produced. Don't think a Fiat Diesel will fair as well with a similar percentage increase.

I don't know enough about the GP to comment with any authority but based on my experience the 170bhp/262ftlb map sounds a lot more realistc in terms of sustained performance and reliability. Big one here for me is that they have test mileage and data, ask the 210bhp map lot if they have the same!

Cheers
M

Rolling Roads have to measure wheel torque to calculate BHP. If the road can't reliably and accurately measure Torque then the power figure it gives you is useless.

If it was my car I wouldn't be expecting or wanting any map on it claiming 210bhp on completely standard hardware without seeing a lot of evidence that it was still within the design spec.... basicaly it won't be, hence you're going to get into reduced life span of components etc.

I ran 430bhp from an engine originaly designed for 225bhp..... standard internals, lasted around 30K between rebuilds. Used to kill ring packs and suffer from exhaust valve seat regression. That was a Saab B234R, one of the strongest 4 pots ever produced. Don't think a Fiat Diesel will fair as well with a similar percentage increase.

I don't know enough about the GP to comment with any authority but based on my experience the 170bhp/262ftlb map sounds a lot more realistc in terms of sustained performance and reliability. Big one here for me is that they have test mileage and data, ask the 210bhp map lot if they have the same!

Cheers
M

apparently the saab B234R engine was benched tested at 850 bhp!
think it was the engine they put in the viggen :)

ps they should of released it with 300 bhp as they originally said so :)

cheers guys. i know there is millions and zillions of maps out there, but how come one can produce 181bhp and only 248lb/ft torque and angel tunings map offers 262lb/ft and 170bhp? i dont get it, and never have, and probably never will, but can you do a bhp/torque guide for dummies icarus?! which does what etc etc etc...

ta! :D

apparently the saab B234R engine was benched tested at 850 bhp!
think it was the engine they put in the viggen :)

ps they should of released it with 300 bhp as they originally said so :)

The 234R is incredibly strong. The viggen used the 235R which has Nimonic exhaust valves, trapeziod little ends etc. whilst technicaly more advanced they sacrificed absolute strength for lower internal friction and outright efficency which resulted in a lower absolute limit for the standard engine.

The 234R is still the daddy of I4's IMHO. Not to mention that in 1993 Saab had DI and in 1994 Trionic.

Trionic was so advanced it sensed combustion chamber pressure via the resistance when the plug was fired and det via the ionisation as it fired based on this it could alter the ignition timing on a per cylinder per firing basis. To give you an idea how advanced it was BMW are making a bit thing about being able to sense ionization on the new M3........ 13 years after Saab had it on 'boring' family saloons.

Nice 9000 Aero for 3K + 4k of mods gives you a 170mph 400bhp+ car that can transport 5 in comfort with all their luggage. Real limiting issue of how much power you can extract from a 9K is the gearbox, over 450ftlbs they get a bit disposable.

Cheers
M

cheers guys. i know there is millions and zillions of maps out there, but how come one can produce 181bhp and only 248lb/ft torque and angel tunings map offers 262lb/ft and 170bhp? i dont get it, and never have, and probably never will, but can you do a bhp/torque guide for dummies icarus?! which does what etc etc etc...

ta! :D


It depends how far the wick is turned up..... seriously! An engine just needs fuel and air and some way to ignite it. On a diesel the ignition is done via compressing the mixture to the point where the pressure it is under makes it combust. Add more fuel (injector pressure or injector duration opened up) and more air (higher boost pressure if required, although on a diesel it isn't always required) and you get a bigger burn which puts more pressure on the piston crown which in turn (via the rod) turns the crank 'harder'. Torque is a measure of twisting force hence and BHP is just a calculation based on torque to give an idea of how much 'work' an engine is capable of doing.

There is of course a limit based on the mechanical limitations of engine components. It's where you place this limit that's important, above a certain (usualy quite low) level reliability is the main thing which is impacted. Also worth noting it's likely the supporting hardware (charge cooling etc.) can't keep up with v high power levels for long so the power drops off rapidly after first application, on a 'lower' power map this may not happen so whilst the headline figure is lower the sustained figure can be the same or higher.

Cheers
M

ok, lets see if i have got this right... torque creates the bhp figure?

so, why would a map producing 248lb/ft produce 181bhp but a map prroducing 262lb/ft of torque only produces 170bhp? does this mean that the engine has to work harder with the 245 map in place compared to the 262 map?

or am i way off?

cheers matt,

david.

David,

BHP is just a measure of work done over time, hence if the torque is higher over a larger spread of the rev band then the total work done in a set period of time will be higher, hence a higher BHP reading.

In short the map making 262 ftlbs has a higher peak figure but a lower overall torque curve, the 248ftlb map has a higher overall torque curve meaning more work is done in the revs available hence more BHP when measured.

It could be the makers of the 262ftlbs map consider this level of torque safe at one point in the rev range but then drop it off rapidly to a level lower than that of the 248ftlb map.

Cheers
M

235R thought that was the one mate.

400 bhp and 170 mph for an aero!! they fun enough with around 200 bhp :)

a mate of mine has just bought a 9000 carlsson in red !

Not quite sure about the word inaccurate. different i will go with but 2 megs run & remapped & FCS with almost identical bhp / torque curves both pre & post map is a coincidence to say the least.
The main difference is that the Red Dot rollers gives you a reading of torque @ the wheels where as a set of dd's gives it at the flywheel.
All said and done, if we ever organise a RR day as a club meet on a set of DD's, i will be there 110%, hopefully so that we can all put this RedDot / RS Tunning re-map debate once and for all.




There is rumour abound that the use an inaccurate dyno. Icarus has said this a few times. I'm keen to see a reddot mapped Meggy on a DD RR back to back with a standard motor and an RS-Tuning one.

I'm just quoting from elsewhere about the accuracy of non-DD rollers. I thought the problem with the Reddot was they were giving a reading of torque at the wheels but BHP at the fly?

Lee's put a thread up about doing a DD RR day at the Scooby Clinic in Chesterfield - not a lot of response so far though, perhaps a bit far north? Maybe we could all head down to WRC in Silverstone again? I'm really keen to see the Reddot Vs RST vs Std.

Not quite sure about the word inaccurate. different i will go with but 2 megs run & remapped & FCS with almost identical bhp / torque curves both pre & post map is a coincidence to say the least.
The main difference is that the Red Dot rollers gives you a reading of torque @ the wheels where as a set of dd's gives it at the flywheel.
All said and done, if we ever organise a RR day as a club meet on a set of DD's, i will be there 110%, hopefully so that we can all put this RedDot / RS Tunning re-map debate once and for all.

That's the thing, Red Dot/Tuning chappy there reckons you can't show Torque at the wheels......... wheras that's what (and the only thing) a rolling road models. DD roads can show you anything you want, you can have Torque at the wheels if you want, just depends what axis you set when you plot the graphs.

I'm more than a bit interested to how these two cars match so exactly..... as previous Dimsport maps certainly didn't and theres no IPR on remaps!!

Cheers
M

im still lost, but would you suggest if i was to have a map then i chose the angel tuning one? although tbh, it has got plenty of power, to say it only chucks out 130bhp and 207lb/ft it is pretty brisk. obviously not 225 pace, but i am really enjoying it at the mo!! :D

although now with the change in circumstances i am looking at meggy scenic 1.9 dci's which have 120bhp (i think) and could easily be mapped to a higher amount to produce a wee bit more grunt! i could always turn it into a renault sport scenic! :D :D :D

maybe this could be because red-dot's map isnt a dimsport map.





That's the thing, Red Dot/Tuning chappy there reckons you can't show Torque at the wheels......... wheras that's what (and the only thing) a rolling road models. DD roads can show you anything you want, you can have Torque at the wheels if you want, just depends what axis you set when you plot the graphs.

I'm more than a bit interested to how these two cars match so exactly..... as previous Dimsport maps certainly didn't and theres no IPR on remaps!!

Cheers
M

next time were alltogether with shaun & chief badger i'll ask them to bring their graphs along.
also what was interesting was the guy that had his meg mapped by paul the day before FCS went on reddot's rollers and made way less than mine in terms of both bhp & torque

just out of interest, can the operator change what the rr will 'prove' ??

tbh Minnt's im not sure but unlikely to do it infront of a crowd of 50/60 people with everyone watching what's going on and whilst having other cars (non-meg 225/230's) on the rollers in between shaun's & chief badgers

If we're having an RR day then, it makes sense to not have it at Paul's! It needs to be either WRC at Silverstone, or Scooby Clinic in Chesterfield I guess.

Ive got a contact at WRC Silverstone, ill get some prices !!!

Yes sort this out Dave please.
Maybe then we can put this to bed. Im tired already. Yawn Yawn

am i welcome?

oh yes mate

http://meganesport.net/community/showthread.php?t=11259