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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So another 225/230 Stage 2 finds the limits of the OEM cheese piston and rods.

My view, Stage 2 has always been a waste of time as the only real advantage is mid-range torque, which is realistically a waste of time for ultimate performance and the lurking killer. There is very little extra power, circa +10 Bhp to be had over a Stage 1 in the Rpm range of delight.

Anyone with a Stage 2 will probably be now kissing the throttle and wondering about the potential Kaboooooomb. And for all you hybrid lovers, peak combustion generated cylinder engine torque is completely independent of the type of induction. No free lunches and no escape if you tickle similar high torque/rpm peaks to a Stage 2 on the OEM blower.

Stage 2 - poke £3K+ in your back pocket for a potential rebuild and/or Forge.

Meg 250 Stage 2 – the jury is out and well done to all those conducting the long term testing.
 

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Ok you lost me with the hybrid lol, should i worry? I went for hybrid over stage as i felt it would be safer than a stage 2.
 

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There wouldn't be many around here using a stage 2 on a track Conley.

The stage 1 is good for track, the stage 2 is the best on the road where the torque comes into play.

Power isn't as important as torque to me, unless you want to rev the crap out of your engine and lose your licence. Stage 2 is awesome for punting around town
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
There wouldn't be many around here using a stage 2 on a track Conley.

The stage 1 is good for track, the stage 2 is the best on the road where the torque comes into play.

Power isn't as important as torque to me, unless you want to rev the crap out of your engine and lose your licence. Stage 2 is awesome for punting around town
The torque is the major contributory factor in engine deaths, not the power.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Ok you lost me with the hybrid lol, should i worry? I went for hybrid over stage as i felt it would be safer than a stage 2.
You just need to compare the Hybrid power/torque/Rpm profile with a stock Stage 2 and see if you have trimmed, smoothed and adjusted the profile through the Rpm range.

Unfortunately, that is not the full story because spool rates and the transition time to peak loading are just as critical for engine failure.

In simple terms, it’s not just about how much torque you may have (although that is a major factor), it’s also where it is generated and the rate it can be applied.
 

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so you're running 340 ftlb?

that's way too much torque for a stock engine. according to another thread you also drive your car "hard" and just replaced your clutch.

it was bound to happen IMO.
 

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I do drive my car hard and i have replaced my clutch. I never said that it wasnt to much torque, But is there a known limit for these rods? So its always going to be a waiting game before it went pop. But surley people running 300bhp must be running similar torque. Im not that fussed to be honest just gives me a reason to forge it
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
A lot of Stage 2 chaps on the stock blower will be running about 300-340 Ft-Lb torque.
 

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well thats my last dyno run on ktecs old dyno if any one wants to compare the facts and figures between a stage 2 and a hybrid turbo, hybrids tend to run less torque than stage 2s.
 

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An interesting topic as ever Conley, a few logs for the fire.....
What no one can say for sure is what exactly is failing and what the cause of it is.
Poor fuelling - is anyone continously monitoring this on a mapped engine? (I.e. wideband kit?)
Is fresh fuel always being used or is it stale from weeks under cover?
De-cats? What are users doing to "manage" the lambda sensors effectively? Remember these control fuelling, both of them.
Rod bolts? Weakness or just an easy "safety factor"?
Con rods themselves? I've seen these rods running much high figures than this on the drag strip, equate duration and against power for life expectancy.
Pistons? Are they the first component to fail? Skirt damage? Melting? Fracture? Ring land degradation?
With a catastrophic failure there's rarely much good evidence left so who's to say forging it is really the answer? No one's got real mileage on a forged one yet have they........
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
An interesting topic as ever Conley, a few logs for the fire.....
What no one can say for sure is what exactly is failing and what the cause of it is.
Poor fuelling - is anyone continously monitoring this on a mapped engine? (I.e. wideband kit?)
Is fresh fuel always being used or is it stale from weeks under cover?
De-cats? What are users doing to "manage" the lambda sensors effectively? Remember these control fuelling, both of them.
Rod bolts? Weakness or just an easy "safety factor"?
Con rods themselves? I've seen these rods running much high figures than this on the drag strip, equate duration and against power for life expectancy.
Pistons? Are they the first component to fail? Skirt damage? Melting? Fracture? Ring land degradation?
With a catastrophic failure there's rarely much good evidence left so who's to say forging it is really the answer? No one's got real mileage on a forged one yet have they........
Not more conspiracy theories please. Tuning is killing engines.

No one can be sure what is failing? Have a look at Gavin225's thread with pictures of the rods shaped like a banana.

Forged pistons, rods and bolts will sort the lump for Stage 2+. No doubt.

Keep internals stock and tune it to 280 Bhp+ and 300-340 Ft-Lb and you roll the dice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·


well thats my last dyno run on ktecs old dyno if any one wants to compare the facts and figures between a stage 2 and a hybrid turbo, hybrids tend to run less torque than stage 2s.
You still have about 320 Ft-Lb from 3000-4600 Rpm .... and that profile and peak torque band is still based on how the run was conducted.
 

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Not more conspiracy theories please. Tuning is killing engines.

No one can be sure what is failing? Have a look at Gavin225's thread with pictures of the rods shaped like a banana.

Forged pistons, rods and bolts will sort the lump for Stage 2+. No doubt.

Keep internals stock and tune it to 280 Bhp+ and 300-340 Ft-Lb and you roll the dice.
Inapropriate tuning kills engines, not just tuning.

Banana rod or not, what about the other ones? Pure over loading or a piston/pin/rod or bottom end type failure stopping the cycle from completing?

Just stage 2 means dice rolling? No stage ones failed then??

Oh and it's not conspiracy. Shouldn't this be the level of thinking which should be behind tuning?
No disrespect to any tuners, but why pay someone £400 to tune your engine to a point you have lit the touch paper to a £xk rebuild?
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Inapropriate tuning kills engines, not just tuning.

Banana rod or not, what bent it? Pure over loading or a piston/pin/rod or bottom end type failure stopping the cycle from completing?

Just stage 2 means dice rolling? No stage ones then??
The rods were over loaded. The engine was still a runner. That is a classic torque loaded cyclic compression failure.

Stage 1 or 2 both roll the dice. The Stage 2 risk is much, much higher.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
.........

Oh and it's not conspiracy. Shouldn't this be the level of thinking which should be behind tuning?
No disrespect to any tuners, but why pay someone £400 to tune your engine to a point you have lit the touch paper to a £xk rebuild?
I fully agree there and that's why I like to flag this up.

A Tuner provides a capability, but is also running a business.

When you buy into that you just need to be aware of the risks versus the potential gains.
 
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